Nerfs and Power Creep

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  • Nerfs and Power Creep

    Originally posted by Luther View Post
    In the future assassination bonus is getting nerfed.
    I want to make sure there's no confusion here. There's not a "bonus" for Assassination, and Assassination is not getting "nerfed". The way some different mechanics interact is going to be changed, and most importantly Assassination will be corrected so that it always counts as Stealth damage, regardless of whether the assassin is stealthy. However, the mechanic associated with Meredith's Key and some other heroes/gear that is based on damage dealt to opponents will be modified to ignore Assassination damage, similar to the way other mechanics ignore Stealth damage.

    Stop throwing around the word nerf. It's not fair to us, especially when it's a misrepresentation of what is happening.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
    I want to make sure there's no confusion here. There's not a "bonus" for Assassination, and Assassination is not getting "nerfed". The way some different mechanics interact is going to be changed, and most importantly Assassination will be corrected so that it always counts as Stealth damage, regardless of whether the assassin is stealthy. However, the mechanic associated with Meredith's Key and some other heroes/gear that is based on damage dealt to opponents will be modified to ignore Assassination damage, similar to the way other mechanics ignore Stealth damage.

    Stop throwing around the word nerf. It's not fair to us, especially when it's a misrepresentation of what is happening.
    The point is that when someone is asking about building toons, and right now people are taking advantage of the Key gaining huge power for your squad with an assassination, it's completely fair to advise someone not to build a squad like 4x Red Lyrium Bart, which is currently Meta solely on a mechanic that is about to change, and effectively pull the rug from under dupe Bart squads.

    I understand that the term Nerf seems unfair and the term fix is preferred, but when the end result is essentially the same, we can feel free to debate the semantics of the terminology or simply omit an undesirable word to appease some feelings.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bjorn Ragnarok View Post

      The point is that when someone is asking about building toons, and right now people are taking advantage of the Key gaining huge power for your squad with an assassination, it's completely fair to advise someone not to build a squad like 4x Red Lyrium Bart, which is currently Meta solely on a mechanic that is about to change, and effectively pull the rug from under dupe Bart squads.

      I understand that the term Nerf seems unfair and the term fix is preferred, but when the end result is essentially the same, we can feel free to debate the semantics of the terminology or simply omit an undesirable word to appease some feelings.
      Plain and simple, it's not about "feelings" it's about facts. If Assassination were getting nerfed, it would mean we are somehow altering the mechanic so that it doesn't automatically kill an opponent, which is what assassination is about. The fact is, we are altering assassination to ensure greater success of automatically killing an opponent while also empowering it to prevent your opponents from being able to benefit off of the effect.

      To state that assassination is getting a nerf is flat out wrong, no matter how you look at it. That is the facts. Do not mislead other players by wrongly interpreting things and stating things in a manner that is misrepresentative of what is actually happening.

      If you want to warn that the combination of Assassination and Meredith's Key will be altering so it's not as powerful as it is currently, that is fine, and completely fair. But do not say "Assassination is getting a nerf".

      Additionally, as it turns out, Meredith's Key and Assassination isn't even really what's causing the biggest issue with the dupe Bart squads - it's the incorrectly stacking bonus damage, which is also going to be fixed, because that mechanic is not currently working as designed. Bigger picture, please. Stop twisting the things we say.

      People throw around the term "nerf" anytime they simply don't like what we are going to do. It lessens the impact of the word, and makes it seem like we do nothing but bad things that take away from player experiences.

      Players scream at us to restore balance to the game, and when we do what needs to be done to ensure balance, we are screamed at for nerfs. It's not fair to us, at all. Continuing to throw the word nerf around recklessly like this only lessens the amount that we are willing to listen to your opinion. It's like the boy who cried wolf - do it enough, and we just stop listening.
      Last edited by Lyeshal; 01-18-2018, 11:34 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
        Plain and simple, it's not about "feelings" it's about facts. If Assassination were getting nerfed, it would mean we are somehow altering the mechanic so that it doesn't automatically kill an opponent, which is what assassination is about. The fact is, we are altering assassination to ensure greater success of automatically killing an opponent while also empowering it to prevent your opponents from being able to benefit off of the effect.

        To state that assassination is getting a nerf is flat out wrong, no matter how you look at it. That is the facts. Do not mislead other players by wrongly interpreting things and stating things in a manner that is misrepresentative of what is actually happening.

        If you want to warn that the combination of Assassination and Meredith's Key will be altering so it's not as powerful as it is currently, that is fine, and completely fair. But do not say "Assassination is getting a nerf".

        Additionally, as it turns out, Meredith's Key and Assassination isn't even really what's causing the biggest issue with the dupe Bart squads - it's the incorrectly stacking bonus damage, which is also going to be fixed, because that mechanic is not currently working as designed. Bigger picture, please. Stop twisting the things we say.

        People throw around the term "nerf" anytime they simply don't like what we are going to do. It lessens the impact of the word, and makes it seem like we do nothing but bad things that take away from player experiences.

        Players scream at us to restore balance to the game, and when we do what needs to be done to ensure balance, we are screamed at for nerfs. It's not fair to us, at all. Continuing to throw the word nerf around recklessly like this only lessens the amount that we are willing to listen to your opinion. It's like the boy who cried wolf - do it enough, and we just stop listening.
        The power gain from assassination with Merediths key combination will be getting Nerfed, plain and simple. Saying it is being altered to be "less powerful" when it is going away completely is inaccurate.

        Assassination in general will be getting a fix, and as a direct result the combination of the two is getting inadvertently nerfed. I'm sorry if you don't like the terminology being the results of the fix are an unintended nerf, but it is what it is.

        As far as bonus damage vs the key gain from assassination, i'd rather face off against a 4x Bart team after the Key gain fix, over the bonus damage fix any day of the week. The ass-key gain is what makes Bart hit for 22 million, just like with Carver or any other assassination toon working with the Key, not the Bonus Damage. Kitties aren't hitting for millions without an ass-key combo, and based on the community research regarding bonus damage, the verdict is still out as far as it actually being broken or not.

        I'm just trying to provide some clarity for a player looking to build toons regardless of the desired terminology that CG would prefer to describe essentially the same result. I can say fix all day if that's preferred, but it won't save Bart in the end, nor would I recommend someone to build dupes of him for that reason. Nerf...fix....whatever..don't build dupe Barts. ;-)

        Not trying to be rude but when I start to care about what people think of my opinions, or when i care if they listen to them or not, I'll be the first to let ya know.

        If it helps I am a fan of game balance and i support this "fix". I'm amazed that the problem wasn't discovered during testing being the combo was already widely known, and used throughout the community, but that's a different discussion. Players knew right away it would cause an imbalance so they invested heavily in Bart, and those are the facts right there.

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        • #5
          Why so against the word "nerf" though, you guys made the game, its ok to nerf certain things for the sake of balance. Other big games nerf stuff all the game. Not saying this is a nerf or not, just saying if something need to be nerf then just nerf it. Its for the sake of the game anyway.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mer'lan View Post
            Why so against the word "nerf" though, you guys made the game, its ok to nerf certain things for the sake of balance. Other big games nerf stuff all the game. Not saying this is a nerf or not, just saying if something need to be nerf then just nerf it. Its for the sake of the game anyway.
            I agree, but once you officially call something a nerf people will scream for compensation. If you call it a fix, you are free and clear.

            On paper, no changes are happening to Bart or Kitties card, so technically it's not a nerf, but to anyone playing the game and ignoring verbal semantics, the result is a definitional nerf.
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            • #7
              The debate, in my own semi worthless opinion anyways, is much bigger than just the current interaction between the assassination and Meredith Key mechanics. It spans to the impending Bonus Damage change. Potential power gaining changes that have been discussed. It goes back to the passive drain changes. Damage reduction changes. Stealth changes.

              Call them fixes. Call them nerfs. Call them shiny happy events for all I care. It makes little difference what we call them and arguing about your flavor of nomenclature above someone else's is merely a byproduct of the angst that has been building over time.

              Bottom line is this: you make decisions about what to build. What to fort. What to gear. Those decisions are based on the state of the game at that moment. And several times now entire squads *and* strategies have been rendered moot and useless by mechanic #FixNerfEditModRebalances. People have grown weary of losing time, money, and resources on a landscape that just can't seem to be left well enough alone. And in most of these cases the mechanic fixes seem to have only been needed because of what appeared to be short-sighted releases. A new toon who passive drains way too much. A revamp that does the same. Fix passive drain. New toons with huge assassination chance. Fix the mechanic. New toons with way too much stacking bonus damage. Fix the mechanic. Squads that are immune to damage due to too many damage reduction auras being released. Fix the mechanic.

              Balance only needs restored because balance keeps getting broke.
              Last edited by xXx_nog_xXx; 01-19-2018, 05:05 AM.
              xXx nog xXx
              "I doubt the whole world hates you. I imagine it's just me."

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              • #8
                Originally posted by xXx_nog_xXx View Post
                Balance only needs restored because balance keeps getting broke.
                That's just the inevitable consequence of power creep. Power creep itself is sort of necessary, because if it doesn't happen (i.e. new releases aren't more powerful than old heroes) then there's no incentive to pursue the new heroes (in the spirit of if it ain't broke) and the business model collapses. The assassination fix will objectively make assassination itself more powerful. The only thing that'll get nerfed is the assassination/key combo, which is a fun exploit right now. So we'll get something and we'll have to give up something. The game will change, which keeps it from stagnation.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Zanir

                  That's just the inevitable consequence of power creep. Power creep itself is sort of necessary, because if it doesn't happen (i.e. new releases aren't more powerful than old heroes) then there's no incentive to pursue the new heroes (in the spirit of if it ain't broke) and the business model collapses. The assassination fix will objectively make assassination itself more powerful. The only thing that'll get nerfed is the assassination/key combo, which is a fun exploit right now. So we'll get something and we'll have to give up something. The game will change, which keeps it from stagnation.
                  Power creep isn't what breaks balance. Poor design is.

                  Kitty is quick. Big stats. Immune to everything but curse. Stealthy. And grants bonus damage.

                  Then let's release gear that stacks that bonus damage tenfold. And make sure that gear can be used by Kitty.

                  Oh wait. Too much? Let's FixNerfEditModBalance it.

                  That's not power creep (which I agree is necessary and good). That's just poor design, poor vision, and poor testing of the end result.
                  xXx nog xXx
                  "I doubt the whole world hates you. I imagine it's just me."

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                  • #10
                    Just to expand...

                    Kitty was fantastic power creep. A very strong unit that deserved her place in the meta right away. Orbs broke it because they were just a terrible idea and way more excessive than power creep.

                    Assassination paired with Meredith Key is a really fantastic thing. Take a 3 or 5% chance that your squad supercharges and goes nuclear - because assassination toons aren't generally that great otherwise. Fun mechanic interaction that had nothing wrong with it for those brave enough to gamble for or against that outside shot.

                    But then release toons with a 50% and 30% assassination chance? That's just broken and piss-poorly thought out. Add in that one of those toons is already pushing the boundaries of normal power creep as it is?

                    That's my point. These things weren't broken. Weren't a problem. Until ridiculous over the top releases.
                    xXx nog xXx
                    "I doubt the whole world hates you. I imagine it's just me."

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by xXx_nog_xXx View Post

                      Power creep isn't what breaks balance. Poor design is.

                      Kitty is quick. Big stats. Immune to everything but curse. Stealthy. And grants bonus damage.

                      Then let's release gear that stacks that bonus damage tenfold. And make sure that gear can be used by Kitty.

                      Oh wait. Too much? Let's FixNerfEditModBalance it.

                      That's not power creep (which I agree is necessary and good). That's just poor design, poor vision, and poor testing of the end result.
                      You guys all have good points and counterpoints, but the OPs thread seems to have been hijacked.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post

                        Additionally, as it turns out, Meredith's Key and Assassination isn't even really what's causing the biggest issue with the dupe Bart squads - it's the incorrectly stacking bonus damage, which is also going to be fixed, because that mechanic is not currently working as designed.
                        Not trying to be difficult, but from my testing the bonus damage does not appear to be stacking incorrectly.

                        Squad below should have 119% BD from self auras (60) and gear (3+28+28 2 Orbs and that maul) if they are adding. 25935 x 2.19 x 2 = 113595, more than shown(probably some DR gear or something).
                        If self auras were stacking crit would have been around 121k I believe.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mer'lan View Post
                          Why so against the word "nerf" though, you guys made the game, its ok to nerf certain things for the sake of balance. Other big games nerf stuff all the game. Not saying this is a nerf or not, just saying if something need to be nerf then just nerf it. Its for the sake of the game anyway.
                          I am against the word being used incorrectly, as it was here. It's a sensitive word that triggers people and causes panic and outrage. Stop using it when it's not true.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Betto1 View Post

                            Not trying to be difficult, but from my testing the bonus damage does not appear to be stacking incorrectly.

                            Squad below should have 119% BD from self auras (60) and gear (3+28+28 2 Orbs and that maul) if they are adding. 25935 x 2.19 x 2 = 113595, more than shown(probably some DR gear or something).
                            If self auras were stacking crit would have been around 121k I believe.
                            There is a whole other thread for that debate. Please take it there.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by xXx_nog_xXx View Post

                              Power creep isn't what breaks balance. Poor design is.

                              Kitty is quick. Big stats. Immune to everything but curse. Stealthy. And grants bonus damage.

                              Then let's release gear that stacks that bonus damage tenfold. And make sure that gear can be used by Kitty.

                              Oh wait. Too much? Let's FixNerfEditModBalance it.

                              That's not power creep (which I agree is necessary and good). That's just poor design, poor vision, and poor testing of the end result.
                              Wow ,had to dig a bit to find this lol!!!Anyhow to piggyback off nog I find it hard to believe that a toon such as Red Lyrium Bart was released without knowing” hey this guy has high assasination,is easily paired with red lyrium that can hold merediths key,and just for sh@ta and giggles is a quick multi attacker”.People have already been using a normal round toon to do this.Thats what pissed me off!!Just saying!!!

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