Best toons for dual forting

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  • Best toons for dual forting

    In the following thread, JSA started an idea: For which toons does it make sense to fort both health and power?

    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-fortification

    In thinking about this question, this criteria might decide who is most worthy of power forts:


    "The degree to which a consumption point is amplified" or "for your hard earned Euro/gem, into which toon does a consumption point give you the most value"?

    I propose the following list sorted from most to least value per fort point

    Criteria for ordering (in rough order of priority)
    1. Application to # of opponents/toon power/toon auras/squad auras
    AoE amplifies more than single hitters (usually 5x)
    All these are baked into the FE factor explained below

    2. Initiative

    Quicker generally uses power more effectively

    3. Opponent power drain

    More than 50% (CZ) > 50% (Merril, DP etc.)

    4. Ally power growth
    50% exponential (KM, QA) > 25% Exponential (Byron)

    5. Personal power growth

    Insane (5x to 25x in 1 turn: Flemeth, Kolgrim) > Exponential (50% gain:GWG, GWO etc.)

    6. Ally heal
    Insane heal (Eirik) > 25% heal based on power (Wynne, Neria, GO, BroodMother)

    7. Survivability

    Can this toon last long enough to make a difference? e.g. Sky Horror hits really hard, but even with squad auras, probably won't last long enough

    8. How often the toon is used
    The more a toon's use, the more the effect of a fort is multiplied. Game dominance (like Bloodmages), membership in groups (more group membership can lead to inclusion in more squads)

    9. Long term viability as the game evolves
    A big consideration, but hard to quantify

    Nomenclature:
    Toon name(speed, attack type, ability affected by power), max power, FE, Squad FE, common squad
    FE=Fort effectiveness-a number which allows us to compare how much damage a fort can do
    FE=# attacked*max power*LC Consumption factor*self aura/1000
    LC Consumption factor=2/3 for LCs
    -it takes exactly 2/3 the consumption points per tier for a normal toon compared to an LC, so your forts don't go as far for an LC
    Squad FE=FE with auras added from the listed common squad formation
    -squad FE was really helpful in trying to compare toons with very different stats and abilities
    Common squad-a common formation of allies that give auras to the power of the toon in question

    The higher the FE, the more effective your fort.

    Toon name(speed, attack type, ability affected by power), max power, FE, Squad FE, common squad
    Flemeth(slow, AoE, crazy power gain), 4767, 23.8, 40.5, 2Morrigan
    Broodmother(slow, AoE, heal), 7266, 49.0, 85.4, 2TF
    Danarius(normal, AoE), 5505, 27.5, 64.7, 2Caladrius/DF
    Crow Zevran(quick, row, drain), 8587, 21.6, 36.3, 2KM/Vart


    KeeperM(normal, AoE, power gain to allies), 3416, 21.4, 34.2, 2KM/Vart


    PSV(quick, column, drain), 5503, 14.9, 30.3, 4PSV/DF
    NH(quick, column, drain), 3669, 11.0, 24.6, 4NH/DF


    SPAL(quick, row), 5251, 18.4, 45.7, 4SPAL/DF
    Alamarri Warlord(quick, column), 9056, 22.6, 42.6, 4AW/DF
    Ben(quick, AoE), 2665, 13.3, 38.0, 3Tallis/Ben/DF


    Sera(quick, row, chance of 2nd attack), 7597, 15.2, 30.4, 2KM/Vart
    Tallis(quick, row), 4825, 14.5, 27.5, 3Tallis/Ben/DF
    Witherfang(quick, row), 6073, 18.2, 40.7, 4WF/DF
    WF is lower than other quicks because stun makes power less important. Stunned opponent almost as good as dead opponent


    Neria(normal, AoE, ally heal), 5582, 34.9, 62.8, 2KM/Vart


    Seeker Cassandra(normal, column, drain), 8695, 23.5, 51.6, 50%Nobility/DF
    Merril(normal, AoE, drain), 3690, 18.5, 34.1, 2KM/Vart
    Sandal(normal, AoE, drain), 3691, 18.5, 43.4, 2RS/DF


    Lyrium Fenris(normal), 5344, 26.7, 49.4, 50%Nobility/DF
    GWG(normal,column, power gain), 7158, 4.3, 33.6, 2NH/DF
    AEG(normal,row, heal), 8646, 21.6, 36.3, 50%Nobility/DF

    Steel Golem(slow, AoE), 7438, 37.2, 50.2, 3Byron/DF
    Sophia Dryden(slow, column), 9592, 24.0, 49.9, 2NH/DF
    Kolgrim(slow, column, crazy power gain), 8695, 17.4, 40.9, 50%Outlaw bonus/DF

    Dragon Flemeth, 8449, 38.0, 38.0
    DF w/4WF, 8449, 38.0, 94.3, 4WF/DF
    (DF doesn't play as much of a role with 4WF as DF doesn't need to be ultra powerful to clean up anything left and not stunned)

    GEF(normal, AoE), 2882, 14.4, 28.8, 2KM/Vart
    CSQ(slow,row,drain), 9973, 13.3, 26.6, 2TF


    Gaxkang(slow, single), 17499, 17.5, 32.4, Baroness/DF
    Morrigan(slow, row), 5171, 14.0, 27.9, 2Morrigan


    LPH(normal, column, self heal), 8377, 16.8, 25.1, RS


    Byron(normal, single, ally power gain), 8776, 8.8, 8.8, DR squad
    Ariane(normal, row, drain), 3929, 7.9, 15.7, 2KM/Vart
    TF(normal, single, power gain), 7012, 10.5, 16.5, 2TF/BM
    The Architect(normal, single, self heal), 8341, 8.3, 19.6, 2TF/BM


    KA(slow, column, ally power gain), 5150, 10.3, 24.2, 2NH/DF
    Ancient Darkspawn(slow, single, chance of AoE drain), 7684, 7.7, 18.2, 2TF/BM


    Risen Ogre(normal, column, self heal/defender), 9252, 12.3, 12.3
    RLM(normal, AoE, power gain), 3655, 27.4, 27.4(against mages), DR squad
    GotU(slow, single, power gain), 12523, 12.5, 12.5, DR squad

    LMT(normal, single, drain), 5669, 7.1, 11.9, 50%Nobility/DF
    King Maric(normal, row, power gain), 5316, 10.6, 19.7, 50%No


    GO(slow, single, ally heal), 11028, 7.4, 7.4, DR squad w/Byron
    Eirik(slow, single, crazy ally heal), 3625, 4.5, 5.8, DF
    bility/DF

    KCC(normal, single, power gain), 9742, 9.7, 9.7, DR squad

    PC(slow, row, self heal), 7815, 10.4, 15.6, RS

    GWO(slow, single, power gain), 8053, 8.1, 12.1, RS
    Brogan Dace(slow, single, power gain), 7706, 7.7, 11.6, RS


    Sky Horror(slow, AoE), 7526, 37.6, 69.6, Baroness, DF
    Schmooples(normal, single), 5669, 5.7, 5.7, DR squad



    n.b.Some toons may not require health forting as you may use them to wipe the opponents before they move. e.g. 4KM vs Uldred, 3Tallis/Ben vs Blue Mage. If so, they come off this list of toons for forting both health and power.

    n.b. I left off Varterral because its hit is usually too small to make any difference forted or not.

    n.b. At minimum, Flemeth only needs forts until with auras she hits for over 75k (forted Dan/Uldred health)
    At minimum, Kolgrim only needs power forts until 1 enemy death causes a hit for over 75k (forted Dan/Uldred health)

    n.b. Bloodmage gain is omitted as it's not dependant on the Bloodmage's own power.
    Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 12-17-2014, 10:02 PM.
    "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
    Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

  • #2
    DF
    Archi
    AD
    TF
    CSQ? - Same as BM.
    Keeper Marethari? - Event though it's just a 10% reduction and she has low health, is it not the same principal as Byron and worth the dual forts?


    Controversial:

    Eirik - Even with the full forts he's low on health, but his heal is huge and his powergain goed by the same principal as Kolgrim.
    RLM - If you really want to invest in a Anti-Mage build you'll want your RLM to have the most HP she can get, she also gains 75% (or so I read) of her own power so you want that as high as possible as well.

    Reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think LPH should be up there. Having his power forted makes his heal better, but he also needs the health forts to survive as well. I'd put him on the list while BD doesn't necessarily need the power forts since he has power gain.

      I would also put AEG up there for the same reasons. I never really hear much about him, but I have 2 that I eventually plan on dual forting.
      Squad of the Month
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      Comment


      • #4
        I think all of the elf mages need both. Power is #1 priority based on what they are used for in counters, but without health forting they tend to die to the first thing that breaths on them. With proper leg forting those elves can take 1-2 hits and still deliver their deadly payload.

        For example i have a group out now that uses Neria, and 2 x KM as the base, subbing in others depending on the opponent. Both KM are near max power, but only one is at max health fortified. My other KM only has epic forts on health. My max health KM has over 12k health in this group without any other buffs (outside of event), where the epic forted KM has only just over 7k. Many times the epic forted KM is just there for buffs, as she dies in one strong attack, and definitely after two. My max health KM can take a pretty large beating before going down, and almost always comes through with her attack. Considering the low initial health pool, it seems absolutely necessary to buff their health, unless they are just being used as an Uldred counter.
        IGN: | | Karsa Orlong | |

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pim Leenders View Post
          DF
          Archi
          AD
          TF
          CSQ? - Same as BM.
          Keeper Marethari? - Event though it's just a 10% reduction and she has low health, is it not the same principal as Byron and worth the dual forts?


          Controversial:

          Eirik - Even with the full forts he's low on health, but his heal is huge and his powergain goed by the same principal as Kolgrim.
          RLM - If you really want to invest in a Anti-Mage build you'll want your RLM to have the most HP she can get, she also gains 75% (or so I read) of her own power so you want that as high as possible as well.
          Until Karsa brought up the Blue Mages, I considered KM to be intrinsically different than Byron. Yes, both give power to allies, but Byron is also a tank. I've always used Blue Mages to annihilate/wet noodle the opponents before anything strikes back, so haven't health forted them. Byron can stand in a slugfest.

          Also, I consider Broodmother to be instrinsically different than CSQ. CSQ only hits row, BM AoE so BM already has 2.5x value on power forts. BM heals allies, so power forts have way more than the 2.5x value over CSQ.
          Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 12-16-2014, 01:11 AM.
          "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
          Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

          Comment


          • #6
            Superseded by new content
            Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 12-16-2014, 09:14 AM.
            "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
            Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

            Comment


            • #7
              @MAM Honda

              Nice list, seems you did a good, objective job on it. What may be missing is an idea of how "strong" any one toon may be. DF for example is a very strong toon with good buff potential and certainly would be a good candidate for full forting probably ahead of RO and GO. Stronger toons and especially toons with excellent long term potential are those who benefit most from full forting. The trick is knowing exactly which toons will last the longest in the meta and give the biggest impact.

              My other personal favorite, Brogan is quite far down the list. Considering that he has double power gain (normal when attacked, massive when attacking), Self heal and Stun resistance he might deserve a higher rank :-)

              Despite my comments on DF and BD it's an excellent list. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
              My Guides and Important threads:

              Take a look for info on where to get Heros, how many to keep/use and advice on leveling (exp).

              http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...eep-quot-Guide
              http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-Complete-List
              http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-Exp-breakdown

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              • #8
                I suppose a hidden agenda for this list was to generate controversy (as any such list will). Believe me, it was a struggle as quantifying long term viability is a black art. I didn't take into account long term viability as I haven't got a handle on the pattern of CGs new releases. All I can say is that they need to continue to power creep toons, or people won't buy. The latest ability is "chance of double attack". I've never actually seen that in action to see what effect it has on the game. It'll take a while before the general player base has enough Gaxkangs and others.

                I also agree that the more powerful the toon, the more absolute damage increase will be had from a fort. DF scores there too. I found 7-20 the least easy to rank.

                DF got higher than even normal AoE as she gets used so much.

                BD scored so low because he gains so much power from being attacked that his own power makes less of a difference. As well, he only hits a single target in the slow round, 1 fort potentially 5x less effective than with AoE. But, with high health and high heal he can really last....

                Rereading your comment, does he gain more from being attacked or from gain based on his own power?

                If we were talking health, he'd easily be near the top as he's part of many counter squads...

                edited original post to increase clarity/add Stonewyrm's long term viability comment
                Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 12-16-2014, 01:19 AM.
                "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MAM_HoDA View Post
                  Also, I consider Broodmother to be instrinsically different than CSQ. CSQ only hits row, BM AoE so BM already has 2.5x value on power forts. BM heals allies, so power forts have way more than the 2.5x value over CSQ.

                  But there's still her drain, which is more effective with more power, that's why I would think she's still worth the extra forts. Then again, I did not know this was a list of who deserves it most instead of just who would benefit from it.

                  Reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Brogan Dace:
                    Attacks one enemy, gains power and heals self.
                    Immune to stun, Gains great power when attacked, Takes 25% less damage.
                    More likely to be hit.

                    As per his card.

                    Sorry I mixed it up, he gains more when attacked (which is probably better since he's slow). Heal rate is some 25% +/-.
                    My Guides and Important threads:

                    Take a look for info on where to get Heros, how many to keep/use and advice on leveling (exp).

                    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...eep-quot-Guide
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                    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-Exp-breakdown

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pim Leenders View Post
                      But there's still her drain, which is more effective with more power, that's why I would think she's still worth the extra forts. Then again, I did not know this was a list of who deserves it most instead of just who would benefit from it.
                      The list was meant to be "for your hard earned Euro, into whom does a fort give you the most value?"

                      I forgot about the drain which I think is more immediately useful than heal (which is useful later in the round, while drain can nerf a toon immediately). CSQ gives 50% drain protection while BM probably only 25%. My choice of BM over CSQ was that Blights squads usually have so much HP that their fights are multiround where a heal makes a difference.

                      CSQ deserves her own spot given her drain, so I'm adding her to the original post.
                      "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                      Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All, I only get to edit the list because I created the thread. I'd love to see others copy the list and edit it per their thoughts.

                        Another way of validating this is to pick any 2 toons and see if they should be switched. For those with programming experience this could be like a simple or bubble sort.

                        The first pair that worry me per Pim's comments are KA vs. CSQ
                        Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 12-16-2014, 01:38 AM.
                        "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                        Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MAM_HoDA View Post
                          The list was meant to be "for your hard earned Euro, into whom does a fort give you the most value?"

                          I forgot about the drain which I think is more immediately useful than heal (which is useful later in the round, while drain can nerf a toon immediately). CSQ gives 50% drain protection while BM probably only 25%. My choice of BM over CSQ was that Blights squads usually have so much HP that their fights are multiround where a heal makes a difference.

                          CSQ deserves her own spot given her drain, so I'm adding her to the original post.
                          I get it, I think I got the intention of the thread wrong at first.

                          I wanted to ask though, what is your motivation for adding King Maric to the list. I'm not sure I agree with that one.

                          Reports of my assimilation are greatly exaggerated.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pim Leenders View Post
                            Then again, I did not know this was a list of who deserves it most instead of just who would benefit from it.
                            Figuring out who benefits the most is the key to figuring out who deserves it the most. It just has to be clearly marked as such.

                            Every player will have a different pool anyway. Let's say someone has Snug but no Dwarves. Or Flemeth but no Defender. Priorities go up or down depending on what someone has to use.

                            I just think high stats (or other abilities) should also make a difference. Toon X with 1000/2000 pow/health is a lot less "fort worthy" as Toon Y with 5000/10000 pow/health assuming same abilities.

                            Still a great list. Will help deciding which of my LC gets forted and where. RO, GO, HO or Snug.
                            My Guides and Important threads:

                            Take a look for info on where to get Heros, how many to keep/use and advice on leveling (exp).

                            http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...eep-quot-Guide
                            http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-Complete-List
                            http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-Exp-breakdown

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pim Leenders View Post
                              I get it, I think I got the intention of the thread wrong at first.

                              I wanted to ask though, what is your motivation for adding King Maric to the list. I'm not sure I agree with that one.
                              King Maric certainly isn't the best use of a fort, hence his place near the bottom. He's a RC hitter. With his power gain, a fort is worth more than an RC hitter without power gain, so he's higher than them. RC hitters give twice the value of single hitters all else being equal. So he's higher than them as well.
                              "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                              Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                              Comment

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                              Additionally, all interactions with Customer Support are considered confidential, and all issues are handled on a case-by-case basis. As such, posts containing transcripts or results of your interactions with Customer Support will be edited or deleted. Keep in mind that your friend's case may not be exactly like your case, so the results of your request may differ from the results of your friend. Customer Support will not discuss the details of any player's case with any other player, but will provide support to you under our established, confidential policies. Asking why your request was resolved differently than another player will result in your post being deleted.

                              Violation of these terms is grounds for removal from EA Capital Games games.


                              What should I do if I see objectionable material on the forums?
                              It is important that members recognize the real-time nature of this forum: the moderators cannot always monitor the contents of posted messages, and as such depend upon you to inform them when participants or their messages are violating our policy as stated here. You must also recognize that they cannot respond immediately to such notices and that some time may pass before any warranted action is taken.

                              To contact a moderator, please use the Flag Post function on the post represented by a flag:


                              What happens if I break the rules?
                              At best, your post will be edited by one of the moderators and you will be issued a warning. If the offense is more serious your post will be deleted. Posting "why was my post edited/deleted?" etc. will only make matters worse, so please don't. If a moderator has not sent you a message stating why, please send the Lead Moderator a message asking for a reason.

                              Should you have already been issued warnings and continue to break the rules, you will be issued an infraction - your posting privileges will be disabled for three days, but you will still be able to view the forums as a guest.

                              For persistent and deliberate rule-breakers your account will be "Banned". That means you are no longer welcome on these forums and/or games and your account will no longer function in them. If you re-register, your new account will be banned as well.

                              Posting Suggestions
                              In the attempt to create a compromise where everyone is happy, the following suggestions are also recommended:

                              1. Be civil and courteous. This forum is visited by people from all over the world, of different ages, genders, religions, and backgrounds, and are each entitled to their own opinion. Keep in mind that in most cases, posts are not intended to offend. If you find yourself taking offense at a post, take a step back and contact the person directly, or appeal to a moderator for arbitration. Don't make the situation worse by posting in anger and lashing out at the original poster. Also, see Flaming, Right to Privacy, and Hatred.

                              2. Make sure that your message topics fit the topic description of the forum in which you are posting. This is for your own benefit - for example, a question regarding a bug or problem should be posted in the Feedback section under the appropriate heading.

                              3. Use the search function before posting, particularly if the question is problem oriented. Most technical questions have been answered before, and solutions are freely available. Additionally, before posting a bug, check the Known Issues thread to quickly see if the staff is already aware, and to find the discussion thread about that issue.

                              4. Make sure that you have followed #3 before posting

                              5. Read the sticky threads at the top of each forum - they are there for a reason, and generally contain information relevant to the forum and/or game.

                              6. Don't quote the entire message that you're responding to, only the pertinent passage. This makes it easier to read for other users.

                              7. If you find it easier to express yourself en français, auf Deutsch, en español, in Nederlands, in Italiano, or any other language, post in the International Discussion forum. Hopefully someone who speaks the same language as you will be able to assist you. All posts in other sections (non-International) of the forums must be in English, so please make use of Google Translate if you need assistance with translation. Posting in English will allow the widest range of people to assist you.

                              In addition to the Forum Rules, you are bound to the general EA Terms of Service both on these forums and in the game. Links to the TOS are as follows:

                              EA TOS English
                              EA TOS French
                              EA TOS German
                              EA TOS Russian
                              EA TOS Spanish

                              By registering and posting on these forums, you agree to be bound to the rules and disciplinary actions set forth above.
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