Avengers and Defenders vs the Overlords

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  • Avengers and Defenders vs the Overlords

    Flemeth's gain has been changed to yield with different mechanics overall, similar play vs. normal speed AoE and different play vs. single/row/column hitters. I'll start a new thread, and let this one sink into history.

    The Anti-WF section is still valid
    -------------------------------------
    The wildest Marvel team up since the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy!

    This post could also be titled "I am GoTU".

    So, who are the overlords. Witherfang has long rested upon the throne. Fearful are the cries when WF approaches. But, Dan has been proclaimed the new overlord. Let break free of the chains of these despots!

    This post is about farming WF and Danarius. Why break Danarius' dominance? I think it is a better game to have multiple teams rather than an unbreakable op team. As I wrote in my very first post to this forum:

    "Bloodsport would have been much less of a movie if everyone had the same style, or the only way to win was a single style. As has been mentioned before, a rock/paper/scissors or old kung fu movie with multiple animal styles meme would be great."

    So let's start with Witherfang before we get to what everyone's looking for:

    JSA has posted the definitive description to farming 4xWF, but it relies on a strong tank. e.g. a levelled, tiered BD, or maybe KCC. But what if you don't have one?

    FR:Morrigan, Dan
    BR:BD,Morrigan
    LC:Snug

    Many people are getting Uldred, so: "I am GoTU"

    FR:GoTU,Dan
    BR:Uldred,Morrigan
    LC:HO

    GoTU's Defender ability nearly doubles Dan's health (except WF gets faction on GoTU, so GoTU really suffers. The 25% faction is transformed to 50-75). So now Uldred can take a hit or two, but will die from a WF crit. Hope that not too many crits follow. Neverthless, you'll win maybe 2/3 of the time.

    Can we get better?

    FR:GoTU, Dan
    BR:Morrigan, Morrigan
    LC:HO

    Since Uldred will die in a crit anyway, why not focus on the front row? With T1 Leg health forts FR might take 2 crits+1 for Morrigans+1 for HO, your odds are getting better. Add >T1 leg forts for Dan and GoTU and .... The highest unboosted WF power for 4xWF+DF is 24414. 3x24414=73242. If you get get GoTU and Dan above this level you might never lose against 4xWF. (There is some hand waving around faction, so it'll probably be higher). Can this be done? Someone with T4 leg forts could test-FR bonu, 2xMorrigan bonus, HO bonus.

    One of the nice things is that if you have a really powerful HO, 2xMorrigan bonus might get HO to absorb 2 hits once in a while, further boosting your winning percentage.

    The Avenger: Flemeth and "I am GoTU"

    As NGcoug (first characterized the fundamentals of Flemeth's mechanics) "..if you use AOE make very sure that Flemeth is dead, or may god have mercy on your soul."

    After quite a few tests it appears there are subtleties:
    Battle:
    1st enemy attack: a # of Flemeth's friends are attacked, a # are killed, a # remain
    2nd enemy attack: a # of Flemeth's friends are attacked, a # are killed, a # remain
    3rd enemy attack : etc.

    Flemeth's attack= 1st attack (#friends attacked x # friends killed) x 2nd attack (# friends attacked x # friends killed) etc. - 1st attack (# toons not killed)- 2nd attack (# toons not killed) etc.

    Pretty crazy. So, what does this mean to overthrowing the overlord Dan?

    Consider:
    FR:GoTU (as long as he has more health than Flemeth, his health doesn't matter that much), Flemeth (Flemeth T4 L85, T1 EPIC fortified with 10th slot opened)
    BR:2Morrigan (unlevelled, unforted, untiered)
    LC:some common LC-Ogre or Sylvan

    Opponent
    FR: Dan, Uldred
    BR: VA, VA
    LC: HO

    or
    FR: Dan, Uldred
    BR: VA, Uldred
    LC: HO

    Dan attacks 5, kills 3 leaving GoTU and Flemeth (2). Usually the rest of the team through sheer perversity go before Flemeth, but it doesn't really matter thanks to GoTU. 5 x 3 -2=13. The described Flemeth has 4848 power which becomes 63024 after multiplying by 13. Depending on Dan health, that usually does the trick. "I am GoTU".

    GoTU effectively doubles Flemeth's health. To check your fight, you can simply add up all the attack power of the enemy squad. If Flemeth's health is greater, she'll live even if everyone crits (they often do, especially with HO often forcing Flemeth last) because GoTU effectively cuts the crits in half. (Just make sure you add in the extra 25% for faction bonus).

    In the recent Battle Royale, I was farming about 1/2 of the top Dan teams with a T1 EPIC fortified Flemeth. Imagine what you could you do with leg forting both health and power?

    What's so fun about this is that you can really tune the Avenger squad based on your Flemeth. GWB gives more power than Morrigan and dies more easily. VA gives more health than Morrigan. Drake gives 35% power like Morrigan, but dies much more easily (useful if your Morrigan gets too healthy and starts surviving). We might actually see the return of XP banks (Drakes). Probably the best LC becomes the common bear (10% to allies, but just doesn't seem to drop from recruit packs. Anyone every got one from RPs?)

    How about
    FR: Dan, Uldred
    BR:WF,VA
    LC:HO

    WF attacks 2, kills BR 2, then Dan attacks 5 (that's what AoE does), kills LC. Formula 2x2 x 5 x 1 =20 - 3 (round 1 GoTU, Flemeth, LC live) - 2 (round 2 Flemeth, GoTU live)=20-5=15. This Flemeth hits for 72720. Obviously crit is almost not worth talking about.

    This is the special theory of Flemeth. It breaks down for single hitters and multiple AoE attacks.
    -single hit single kill gives factor 2 (includes suicide Hunger Demons).
    -AoE attack killing 2 then another AoE attack killing 1 should given 5x2 x 5 x 1 - 3 - 2 = 45, but it is actually gives 25. This corresponds to 5x2 x 3x1 (# of toons actually remaining) - 3 - 2. Why? Maybe someone else can discover the general theory of Flemeth, however, empirically, it is a factor of 25.

    Number's like these are more than enough to take out the Overlord squads.

    What about different Defenders?
    "I am GoTU"
    You would think Risen Ogre would be even better as you have more tuning options with regular toons. However RO, GWG, AW, Seeker Cassandra all hit in normal or quick round. If they hit before Dan, he gets charged, and may overwhelm your health. If you anticipate this, your toons may be too healthy if Dan goes first and then they won't die.

    GoTU's slow round attack +10% damage reduction seems to be the best of the Defenders.

    What if you don't have GoTU, you can still use 3 weak Morrigans and fort your Flemeth. It's harder, because the 3 Morrigans start to buff each other and tend not to die as much. It's a hard squad to tune, but doable.

    I found that getting Flemeth's power enough to take out Dan was harder than health, so, even common power runes could do the trick, but this was with epic forting only.

    P.S. Karsa has published alternate ways of dealing with Dan and Uldred using AW, Sten and Kolgrim.

    I should mention that when you do your maths correctly with the Avenger squad, you should get 100% win rate.

    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...he-Blood-Mages!

    P.S.
    One of the issues with this build is that the "gimps" starting getting too healthy with XP to die. To get around this, consider the following:

    FR: Flemeth, Defender
    BR: Gimp 1, Gimp 2
    LC: Terror or Varterral

    Whaaaattt??
    In the Birthday Bonanza PvP I fought over 1000 fights, so my gimps got way too powerful. I needed a way to make the attacker's power scale with the health of the gimps (up to the point at which the attackers would kill Flemeth).

    I used a fresh Terror (and you thought there would never be a use for this LC). Terror attacked the opponents, so that Dan would be more powerful when attacking and would kill the gimps.

    It was pretty close, but as Terror got more XP, its power scaled with the health increase of the gimps. (Not perfect as the gimps went up faster, but it let me extend the life of the gimps). When the gimps got too strong, I switched to an L65 T4 Varterral (and from Schmooples to GotU). The more forted your Flemeth's health, the greater the range in which you can play this strategy.

    P.P.S.
    If you start fortifying your Flemeth, you can start using 2 low level Defenders.

    FR: Flemeth, Stroud
    BR: Morrigan, Stroud
    LC: DF or whatever or RO

    The unlevelled Strouds (or Mhairi) take the initial Dan blast, die and power up Flemeth. If Flemeth has enough health, or you have RO, then she can survive. You can rely on Morrigan dying, or have Flemeth forted to where 2 deaths are enough to power her up to take out the opposing squad.
    ------------------
    In the following thread, our community voted that squad construction strategy was the most enjoyed part of PvP. To this end, having counters to seemingly unbeatable squads (Rock/Paper/Scissors meme) moves the game in this more enjoyable direction. Once the formerly Op/Overlord squads become a liability in the defense slot, PvP will become even more varied and enjoyable.

    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...anking-rewards

    Rock/Paper/Scissors meme (giving every Overlord squad a counter)

    Overlord Uldred/Blight squad counter
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...e-Mage-Project
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...394-4x-KM-Vart

    Overlord Witherfang squad counter
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-puzzle-solved!

    Overlord Dan/(cheaper) Witherfang Blood Mage squad counter
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-the-Overlords

    Overlord EH/SPL/Tallis squad counter
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-the-Overlords

    Overlord NH/PSV/AW squad counter
    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...-the-Overlords
    Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 03-10-2015, 01:27 PM.
    "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
    Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

  • #2
    Karsa has published alternate ways of dealing with Dan and Uldred using AW and Kolgrim.

    I should mention that when you do your maths correctly with the Avenger squad, you should get 100% win rate.

    http://forums.capitalgames.com/showt...he-Blood-Mages!
    "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
    Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

    Comment


    • #3
      Really awesome idea with Flemeth. Immediately tested it out and beat a top end team, then lost the second. Really cool that this works.

      Used your exact layout, Flemeth, GotU in the front, and 2 x Morrigan in the back, except my Flemeth and GotU are T1 leg forted, and my Morrigan are both T1 epic forted. For a LC i used a T1 TGO at level 1, to give another 10% resistance.

      It was hard to believe when their entire blood mage team went before Flemeth and she didn't die! Had a sliver of health left at the end and murdered the lot of them. This is a max forted team i beat too, DA - Uldred front row, Uldred - VA back row, with HO.

      I am not sure how well this works on a large sample yet but it's really making me think! Cheers
      IGN: | | Karsa Orlong | |

      Comment


      • #4
        It's a long post, but buried in the middle is an algorithm for winning:

        Add up all the power of your enemy squad. If it's less than Flemeth's health, you'll always win (stunners being what they are). Just add on a bit for faction. TGO will let you go over a bit, but it's a crazy balancing act, as you don't want to shield Morrigan too much or she won't die.
        Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 11-21-2014, 04:27 AM.
        "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
        Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

        Comment


        • #5
          So far it works great. I tried again 5 times on that same guy i had beaten (thanks Sir Muzzy), and won 4 times.

          I am not sure how it is always suppose to win? If Dan doesn't slow Flemeth then she can attack early, and then its a guaranteed loss. I attacked 5 other times on different groups, and lost three of those because Dan didn't slow Flemeth, and she attacked before Uldred or HO.

          Either way, you are definitely correct about keeping Flemeth alive. If Flemeth gets slowed its a 100% chance to win, and she will always stay up.
          IGN: | | Karsa Orlong | |

          Comment


          • #6
            My guess is that your squads are too strong (except Flemeth and GoTU). In my squad, Dan kills BR and LC always. If he doesn't, adjust your squad. Then it doesn't matter if Dan slows or not. I use unforted Morrigans, but with your health, you might try subbing a GWB for a Morrigan to reduce the health of the other Morrigan or TGO, and to let her/it die. Of course you can't lower Flemeth's health too much...

            Also, Dan (or whoever's) health needs to be less than 13x Flemeth's power (not incl. a crit), or you won't get a guaranteed kill Flemeth's turn.

            For a guaranteed win (in addition to the health/power matchup), you want 3 dead after Dan's turn.

            Also,TGO might be too much. Try an uncommon LC. It's a crazy way of thinking.
            Last edited by MAM_HoDA; 11-21-2014, 05:00 AM.
            "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
            Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MAM_HoDA View Post
              My guess is that your squads are too strong (except Flemeth and GoTU). In my squad, Dan kills BR and LC always. If he doesn't, adjust your squad. Then it doesn't matter if Dan slows or not. I use unforted Morrigans, but with your health, you might try subbing a GWB for a Morrigan to reduce the health of the other Morrigan or TGO, and to let her/it die. Of course you can't lower Flemeth's health too much...

              Also, Dan (or whoever's) health needs to be less than 13x Flemeth's power (not incl. a crit), or you won't get a guaranteed kill Flemeth's turn.

              For a guaranteed win (in addition to the health/power matchup), you want 3 dead after Dan's turn.

              Also,TGO might be too much. Try an uncommon LC. It's a crazy way of thinking.
              Yeah that is definitely it. My Morrigans have too much health. I will have to keep the next ones i pull from SP i guess. TGO dies from Danny at T1 and no forts so he is fine i think. I know on a few of those opponents she would have died without TGO, as you couldn't even see the red from her health it was so low.

              I had leg forted my Flemeth in anticipation of her being buffed, and she may be worth it. Really appreciate that you came up with this! Cheers
              IGN: | | Karsa Orlong | |

              Comment


              • #8
                You really might be able to get the same effect as new Morrigans with a GWB and one of your current Morrigans. A GWB and a new VA could work.
                "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MAM_HoDA View Post
                  You really might be able to get the same effect as new Morrigans with a GWB and one of your current Morrigans. A GWB and a new VA could work.
                  I have 4 t1 un fortified and not well leveled morrigans and I still kept 1 Flem after her buff just because I knew it was a sweet buff that may have utility down the road - I also have a DF at t1 level 1 - I'll look at the maths of the opponent as you note - if this works at this high of a level ... man this is a pretty big breakthrough as the main parts of this team drop from SPs and MANY of the playing base have Morrigan / Flem.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JohnnySteel Alpha View Post
                    I have 4 t1 un fortified and not well leveled morrigans and I still kept 1 Flem after her buff just because I knew it was a sweet buff that may have utility down the road - I also have a DF at t1 level 1 - I'll look at the maths of the opponent as you note - if this works at this high of a level ... man this is a pretty big breakthrough as the main parts of this team drop from SPs and MANY of the playing base have Morrigan / Flem.
                    Sadly, GoTU is necessary and still pretty rare.

                    Depending on how power forted is your Flemeth, DF isn't necessary. DF becomes a problem as she levels because the Morrigan/HOs start making her too strong to die after first normal AoE hit. It's hard to believe, but the uncommon LCs can often be more useful.
                    "Dan and his BloodMage buddies loved the sport of hunting for the rare goaten eggs. With each new egg, they increased their efforts and enthusiasm. Then Dan found the goat who laid the eggs. Dan soon had all the eggs and went forth to resume the sport he loved. But, the village was empty as his buddies could no longer find eggs nor the sport they loved. Dan threw down his eggs and left, realizing that while he did indeed love the eggs, he loved the sport and his buddies more. When other goats returned, there was only Smaug who yawned and went back to sleep..." With a start, Dan awoke from his nightmare and vowed to run from GOATS!
                    Enter your Nexus drops and see your odds: http://bit.ly/HoDA_Nexus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Omg this is insane, I'm getting wins with a baby bronto as LC. All my leg LC are too strong so I figured some little DR epic LC is best fit. I'm almost laughing trying this.


                      ally code 364-346-483

                      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC41...6lDJCnzOAM2jEg

                      Roster as of 1/27/15
                      https://cyber.tinytake.com/sf/NDc3MTBfMzY3ODQy
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Biggest problem is one of my morrigans is too strong


                        ally code 364-346-483

                        https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC41...6lDJCnzOAM2jEg

                        Roster as of 1/27/15
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cyberdrgn View Post
                          Omg this is insane, I'm getting wins with a baby bronto as LC. All my leg LC are too strong so I figured some little DR epic LC is best fit. I'm almost laughing trying this.
                          Dragon thrall is even better, try some weak VAs if u have them.

                          MAM thank you so much for this, I hope you dont mind that I mention you in this video. Just fun fun fun.

                          YouTube - Flemeth Bomb - Blood Mage Counter Strategy
                          Click Here to Check out my HoDA YouTubes

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                          • #14
                            This finding could be strategy thread of the year. Very impressive.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JohnnySteel Alpha View Post
                              This finding could be strategy thread of the year. Very impressive.
                              Agreed. Just incredible stuff, Flemeth aint just a party trick anymore. Probably worth leg health forting and will be in the 4 team rotation often for me. Thanx again MAM and Karsa.
                              Click Here to Check out my HoDA YouTubes

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                              3. Use the search function before posting, particularly if the question is problem oriented. Most technical questions have been answered before, and solutions are freely available. Additionally, before posting a bug, check the Known Issues thread to quickly see if the staff is already aware, and to find the discussion thread about that issue.

                              4. Make sure that you have followed #3 before posting

                              5. Read the sticky threads at the top of each forum - they are there for a reason, and generally contain information relevant to the forum and/or game.

                              6. Don't quote the entire message that you're responding to, only the pertinent passage. This makes it easier to read for other users.

                              7. If you find it easier to express yourself en français, auf Deutsch, en español, in Nederlands, in Italiano, or any other language, post in the International Discussion forum. Hopefully someone who speaks the same language as you will be able to assist you. All posts in other sections (non-International) of the forums must be in English, so please make use of Google Translate if you need assistance with translation. Posting in English will allow the widest range of people to assist you.

                              In addition to the Forum Rules, you are bound to the general EA Terms of Service both on these forums and in the game. Links to the TOS are as follows:

                              EA TOS English
                              EA TOS French
                              EA TOS German
                              EA TOS Russian
                              EA TOS Spanish

                              By registering and posting on these forums, you agree to be bound to the rules and disciplinary actions set forth above.
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