To fort, or not fort, that is the question -

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  • To fort, or not fort, that is the question -

    Ok, so there has been some questions on forting and events - is it needed since PVP bonuses don't apply to fortification? This will be a tad long, but stay with me. The answer like most things is: "depends." The depends part pertains to your goals in PVP and how big the bonus is. I'll use The Architect as an example. I'll compare the health of an un-forted Archi, a T1 Epic forted Archi, and an archi with T3s/T4s and T2 leg forted in various event bonus structures. I'm also going to assume this guy is in a team with another archi and a BM - so we're getting 135% from auras as well. I'll also show the calculation I used for each event structure.

    #1 - Un-forted Archi: 4533
    #2 - T1 Epic forted Archi: 8818
    #3 - Heavy leg forted Archi: 13398

    So let's see how these guys compare in various events:

    Event 1: 200% bonus ((base health*3)+fort points))*2.35 health aura
    #1 - 31,958 (61% of #3)
    #2 - 42,027 (80% of #3)
    #3 - 52,790
    • As we can see here, the unforted archi (#1) has 61% of the health in the event that the heavily leg forted archi (#3) does - the epic forted one (#2) has 80% of the health. So you can get 80% of the performance in health with T1 epic forts in a small bonus event as compared to heavy leg fortification
    • Note that with no bonus #1 would only have about 33% of the health as #3 (4,533 vs. 13,398) - so the event bonus effectively gives you something similar to having epic forts when compared to #3 even if you have no fortification at all...and this is a fairly small event bonus

    Event 2: 400% bonus ((base health*5)+fort points))*2.35 health aura
    #1 - 53,263 (72% of #3)
    #2 - 63,333 (85% of #3)
    #3 - 74,096
    • Expected results based on what we see in event #1
    • Epic forting here is looking pretty appealing, especially if you are targeting a PVP bracket outside of the top 100 or so - 85% of the value of heavy forting

    Event 3: 300% bonus and 100% stack bonus (((base health*4)*2)+fort points)*2.35 health aura
    #1 - 85,220 (80% of #3)
    #2 - 95,290 (90% of #3)
    #3 - 106,053
    • Stacking gives the unforted #1 Archi 80% of the health of the heavily forted #3 archi...
    • Stack is where forting really begins to lose its potency

    Event 4 500% bonus & 200% stack (this was the GW Finals structure) (((base health*6)*3)+fort points)*2.35
    #1 - 191,746 (90% of #3)
    #2 - 201,816 (95% of #3)
    #3 - 212,579
    • So in the GW event, you pretty much didn't need to fort your GWs at all with this kind of event bonus as unforted #1 had 90% of the health as the heavily forted #3 - the fortification value really was nullified - epic T1 fortification got you 95% of the performance of a heavily leg forted toon

    Event 5 1500% bonus & 500% stack (the recent rare PVP bonus) (((base health*16)*6)+fort points)*2.35
    #1 - 1,022,645 (98% of #3)
    #2 - 1,032,715 (99% of #3)
    #3 - 1,043,478
    • So in the rare event bonus - fortification was pretty much pointless.

    What does this mean for fortification:
    • If you generally target in the 101 - 1000 bracket and the event bonus is at least 200%, you are probably okay with epic forting your toons and probably even just rare forting - anything higher of an event bonus just makes this more so true
    • The breakeven for forting with legs or not forting with legs for me is 300% - if you are shooting for top prizes and the bonus is 300% or less, you probably need the leg forts in there as at 400% this is where you start to get 85% of the performance with just using epics - that gets you within RNG range and keep in mind that 85% is vs. heavily fortified leg units - vs. T1 leg units or epic / leg mixed units it would be even closer
    • Anything with a stacked bonus, you get little additional benefit out of leg forting vs. epic forting and if the event bonus is big enough you should just go with no forts

    This has a lot of ramifications for buildings teams and preparing for events. For example, I'm still leg forting my main builds: Dwarves, Blights, Blue Mages...in addition to Uldred/WF. I compete at top levels with these toons so I want them maxed...but I've decided I can expand to more toons and just epic fortify and be okay in most events. If there is a no bonus event, where fortification will be a huge factor ... you can just use your best team anyway.

  • #2
    Great insight yet again Johnny.

    Reading this thread really makes me want CG to rethink this format. I really believe that fortification should matter more, especially since there are PVP events with a bonus almost all the time. The last PVP event without bonus was so long ago I don't even care to remember.

    Also, there have been more and more events where one group gets HP and another group gets power, how much value will you get out of your leg forts there? I'm willing to bet the fortification value goes way up, but probably still not enough to compensate for the increase in either health or power on the other (or same) group.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pim Leenders View Post
      Great insight yet again Johnny.

      Reading this thread really makes me want CG to rethink this format. I really believe that fortification should matter more, especially since there are PVP events with a bonus almost all the time. The last PVP event without bonus was so long ago I don't even care to remember.

      Also, there have been more and more events where one group gets HP and another group gets power, how much value will you get out of your leg forts there? I'm willing to bet the fortification value goes way up, but probably still not enough to compensate for the increase in either health or power on the other (or same) group.
      Well for event where there is 1 with health and 1 with power, the same rules apply - so take this event and Fereldan - for their power forting is less important, but for their health that will be the huge determining factor since there is no health bonus on Fereldan. However, still may not matter as the 400% power bonus probably outweighs the fortification anyway. The no health to a group is also a disadvantage because now this lets other non-themed toons dominate - WF, or Ben / Tallis for example. Anything that gets initiative over your power boost. A fereldan squad other than NHx4 is a pretty terrible team to put in the defense slot as they are vulnerable to many other non-themed squads.

      I'm uncertain how I feel about fortification applying or not to the event bonus. I kind of like being able to build secondary units with Epics forts and still be able to compete at decent levels in those events. I think you'll still need leg forts in most events unless there is a big stack if you are competing for top 100 or better. You won't be able to get away with 85% of the value and fight in the top 50. So fortification does matter - i'd say only in 2 events did it not matter at all: GW Finals and the rare event. I guess I'm indifferent because with leg forts I'll have a decent edge in most event structures and for teams I'm just epic forting I can still compete for decent prizes with a lesser toon investment.

      Also, keep in mind you will need fortification for PVE - and who knows exactly what Nexus holds for changes in that regard....maybe PVP will change as well. This info may all be worthless in a few days.

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      • #4
        I think they hold back on fixing this issue due to the Leogate.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by syll View Post
          I think they hold back on fixing this issue due to the Leogate.
          Has been noted that the FR bonus will be fixed most likely in the next update - maybe this gets changed with that as well?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JohnnySteel Alpha View Post
            Well for event where there is 1 with health and 1 with power, the same rules apply - so take this event and Fereldan - for their power forting is less important, but for their health that will be the huge determining factor since there is no health bonus on Fereldan. However, still may not matter as the 400% power bonus probably outweighs the fortification anyway. The no health to a group is also a disadvantage because now this lets other non-themed toons dominate - WF, or Ben / Tallis for example. Anything that gets initiative over your power boost. A fereldan squad other than NHx4 is a pretty terrible team to put in the defense slot as they are vulnerable to many other non-themed squads.

            I'm uncertain how I feel about fortification applying or not to the event bonus. I kind of like being able to build secondary units with Epics forts and still be able to compete at decent levels in those events. I think you'll still need leg forts in most events unless there is a big stack if you are competing for top 100 or better. You won't be able to get away with 85% of the value and fight in the top 50. So fortification does matter - i'd say only in 2 events did it not matter at all: GW Finals and the rare event. I guess I'm indifferent because with leg forts I'll have a decent edge in most event structures and for teams I'm just epic forting I can still compete for decent prizes with a lesser toon investment.

            Also, keep in mind you will need fortification for PVE - and who knows exactly what Nexus holds for changes in that regard....maybe PVP will change as well. This info may all be worthless in a few days.

            I agree but probabily it is thought that way to diminuish distance between old or heavy spender strong players and newbies. I dont see any other explanation
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            • #7
              Originally posted by JohnnySteel Alpha View Post
              Ok, so there has been some questions on forting and events.....
              Really nice work Johnny
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              • #8
                Thanks so much for this JohnnySteel- it will make tiering up BD that much less painful.
                On that note, what do you think about LC Snug, can I also get away with t1 epic in health or does he need the T1 Legendary health forts to be effective? Ie 80% is effective for me.
                i

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by |WWJD| Riful of the West View Post
                  Thanks so much for this JohnnySteel- it will make tiering up BD that much less painful.
                  On that note, what do you think about LC Snug, can I also get away with t1 epic in health or does he need the T1 Legendary health forts to be effective? Ie 80% is effective for me.
                  If there are toons that you really want to perform at a high level than you still want leg fortification. Tanks in particular like Snug, I'd want max performance. Also, I can't really say if 80% is enough or not because the 80% depends on the event bonus - if the bonus is large it will be higher, if no bonus it will be much lower...but let's just say it is an 80% event, if you are going for top 250 to 500 I'd say that is probably enough. But if you want to go top 100 or especially top 25 the 80% will probably leave you at a disadvantage vs. many teams. You could make that up using runes heavily though - 2x power runes or 2x health runes.
                  From my experience with GW events where I used this approach, the epic forted toons work just fine for top 250 - 500. This was with a big event bonus though.

                  So for me personally I'm still leg forting my best toons and main builds. Toons that aren't primary to me though I'm just putting in epics. So if there is an event outside of my leg-forted builds with a really big bonus that shuts those teams out...I'm in good shape and can compete at least in the top 100ish range with my epic forted toons at t4. If there is an event with no bonus or a small bonus - I can generally just use my main leg forted teams.

                  I'd say if you want Snug to be part of your "main" squad or be a really strong build that you can go to - I'd use leg forts on it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Riccardo Busia View Post
                    I agree but probabily it is thought that way to diminuish distance between old or heavy spender strong players and newbies. I dont see any other explanation
                    I'm not sure the reason either - can't remember if this is as intended or not. Syll indicates maybe this is broke. So maybe this will change soon.

                    You are correct in that this puts everyone on a more competitive playing field. You still get a notable edge in most events with leg forting, but it's muted a bit. Epic forted teams can beat leg forted teams if you get a decent help from RNG or use legendary runes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks so much JohnnySteel. A really comprehensive answer. I usually like to float around rank 60 PVP, and only do top 50 with 4xWF DF, if there is a really good reward there. I usually like to nudge most events.

                      2xBD, DP, LMT, Snug is going to be my secondary team for when I come across an opposing 4x WF and don't wanna next or rune

                      So leg health forts for Snug and some epic forts for power on my BD's. Thanks again for your advice!
                      i

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JohnnySteel Alpha View Post
                        I'm not sure the reason either - can't remember if this is as intended or not. Syll indicates maybe this is broke. So maybe this will change soon.
                        I dig up a bit and found out that fort has never been considered into the event buff calculation. Seems like my mind was playing tricks on me.

                        Here was questions asked by Ahoo during the aura stack changes, which was never answered by Kiv.

                        Originally posted by Ahoo AZ View Post
                        Hi Kiv,

                        While you checking for it, please help to verify the following as well
                        1) Why the event bonus is not taking fortified damage into consideration?
                        2) Ability such as Heal self and Heal Allies, is it affected by fortification damage and event bonus?
                        3) Similary, how does power up self or power up allies work with fortification and event bonus?

                        Thank you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Excellent Analysis per usual Johnny, a few things I'd like to throw in for consideration:

                          Auras and Runes affect Fortified Stats. In this sense you can magnification on Fortified Stats through these means. In a recent conversation (on the forums with Adeildo Bezerra) it was discussed when/how the various bonuses were being applied, and it was shown that Auras (and my assumption is Runes as well) affect Forts on top of Event Bonuses affecting Base Stats. Therefore, with the right Aura mix and Rune usage, you can increase the 15% stat margin between Epic and Legendary forged toons further (not as far as a decent event bonus itself, but before than nothing). In most cases I hesitate a guess that the stat difference is such that RNG still plays a large role in deciding fights, however, that's always been the case in HoDA, so the status quo remains.

                          Furthermore, Gain and Drain calcs still seem to support the notion both mechanics work on "current" power, and "current" power is affected by forts as well as other bonuses. Even without magnification via event bonuses on Forted Power the difference in how much is gained/drained can be substantial. In addition to this is the notion of enough "HP", and in quite a few cases it is my higher forted toons, regardless of those fort stats being un/affected by event bonuses, that survive to attack again. Survivability, even a small amount, is a serious factor on a number of units, and even small improvements can matter in a long grind.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Riccardo Busia View Post
                            Really nice work Johnny
                            As always, thx johnny!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The_Dude ★ View Post
                              Excellent Analysis per usual Johnny, a few things I'd like to throw in for consideration:

                              Auras and Runes affect Fortified Stats. In this sense you can magnification on Fortified Stats through these means. In a recent conversation (on the forums with Adeildo Bezerra) it was discussed when/how the various bonuses were being applied, and it was shown that Auras (and my assumption is Runes as well) affect Forts on top of Event Bonuses affecting Base Stats. Therefore, with the right Aura mix and Rune usage, you can increase the 15% stat margin between Epic and Legendary forged toons further (not as far as a decent event bonus itself, but before than nothing). In most cases I hesitate a guess that the stat difference is such that RNG still plays a large role in deciding fights, however, that's always been the case in HoDA, so the status quo remains.

                              Furthermore, Gain and Drain calcs still seem to support the notion both mechanics work on "current" power, and "current" power is affected by forts as well as other bonuses. Even without magnification via event bonuses on Forted Power the difference in how much is gained/drained can be substantial. In addition to this is the notion of enough "HP", and in quite a few cases it is my higher forted toons, regardless of those fort stats being un/affected by event bonuses, that survive to attack again. Survivability, even a small amount, is a serious factor on a number of units, and even small improvements can matter in a long grind.
                              Agree on small improvements. In the analysis though I showed all final numbers including 135% worth of auras. If runes act as additional auras essentially, which I think they do in an event, the relative performance will stay the same (so it will still have 85% of the value because you are multiplying both numbers by the same amount). I think this is what you're saying. Another issue to consider is when the FR bonus is fixed and how that is calculated in a PVP - we don't know. FR bonuses are supposed to include fortification - if that calculation goes in to effect then FR toons with leg fortification will see a much bigger gain from the FR bonus than epic forted toons - even with a big event bonus.

                              Please anyone reading this take it more as informational and do with it what you feel seems correct. I hesitated to post this as I can't give any hard guidelines really and I don't know what CG is going to do with future bonus structure of PVP...and who knows what changes Nexus will bring.

                              I think the main takeaway from this is the larger the bonus or if there is a stack especially, the less impact fortification has on the outcome.

                              I can tell you what I did with this info / observation is I expanded my builds to include more toons at t4, but only epic fortified them. I never built GW before - only used as fort food, but I put together a t4 KA, NH, GWO, Barky, and GWA for the GW events - and they did well with the big bonuses in those events. I also wasn't shooting for high brackets though. Still - I've had fun building some cool secondary teams - I t4'd GCA and acquired a 2nd in the recent event along with LMT to build as well. I'll epic fort them - if there is a Warrior/Noble event they should do fine in a similar bonus structure along with BD/PC/Byron, etc. that are heavily leg fortified. If they are falling short in an event I really want to do well in, I can just go back and fort their slots with legs and all I've lost are epic forts. If CG changes the structure completely and all events include fortification ... well I have some great fort food for my other toons

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