Bulls Edge (again)

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  • Bulls Edge (again)

    There's an (closed or I'd have gone there) older thread about Bulls Edge not always showing damage done which suggested that a curse animation was visually bugging it. I'm pretty confident that's not the whole problem.

    I've been running with 3 BD, 1 JD and PC (don't judge, alt doesn't have more JDs or THG yet!) with 3 Edges and it definitely seems not to be triggering every time. I have not had the zombie thing yet, with the dead still standing, that suggests the damage is done they just don't fall over. I've had 2 BDs kill directly following each other in the same round, and the first doesn't trigger while the second obviously does, taking a chunk out of the remaining 2 or 3.

    I'm happy to try specific set ups as a test if that helps diagnose, but having Bulls Edge be unreliable with Brogan is a right pain.

  • #2
    Working hypothesis from guild mates: Heal on ally death or heal ally on death gets in the way, order of priority wise.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by pixie359 View Post
      Working hypothesis from guild mates: Heal on ally death or heal ally on death gets in the way, order of priority wise.
      this is exactly correct. on death healing has an impact on, on death damage. I used to say that it cancelled it out completely, but I don't think that's the case. If the explosion damage from Bull's Edge outweighs the on death healing aura, Bull's Edge and Red Lyrium Bow still work as intended, but I agree that the order of operations is potentially not working as intended. If the healing works, no additional damage is taken from Bull's Edge, then everyone heals accordingly. If Bull's Edge outweighs the healing, no healing happens as everyone dies from explosion damage.

      Josie is rumored to not show the extra damage being her curse and drain animation may possibly impact showing the explosion damage, but i've killed a Josie with explosion damage, so we know that works, to some extent.

      Other heroes like DM seem strangely immune to Bull's Edge damage still.

      JD, LSC, Shales with gear have on death healing that appears to bug out Bull's Edge. Arcane Hawkes as well but those seem much less buggy (usually they all die but sometimes one lives by chance untouched.)

      also, Cat Collar can counter to some extent, the damage through healing.

      The question for me is, what SHOULD have priority as far as order of operations. That being said, if on death healing takes priority, the enemy should take damage from Bull's Edge AFTER they heal, and they don't currently.
      Ally Code: 691-997-272

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      • #4
        Thanks Bjorn, that's really helpful. I knew this had been discussed, but I thought it had been decided it was all a visual effect down to the Josie / curse animation.

        There are a couple of questions that arise for me:

        Order of priority - do you heal or take damage first? It's only edge cases it'll matter, where an individual would die one way and survive the other. I'm not invested either way, I don't think game text is explicit on order, and as long as the interpretation is consistent that's fine.

        Cancellation of effect - if I read you, it seems that on death healing prevents splash damage that should happen (probably after, but see above). This is a problem.

        Is this recognised by CG? It doesn't seem to be on the latest 'known bugs' list.

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        • #5
          I don't see why any of the on-death effects should happen after or before the other; in my view, both should be considered at once. By example, if splash damage is -50.000 and kitty's collar is +30.000, then the total result is -20.000 and that should be applied. There's no reason to expect that a toon with 40.000 health should die on that case.
          Ally Code: 362-689-939

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          • #6
            I think you're right, but I imagine that there needs to be an order for coding reasons - it would be a bigger job to insert a calculation stage if it isn't already there.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bjorn Ragnarok View Post


              The question for me is, what SHOULD have priority as far as order of operations. That being said, if on death healing takes priority, the enemy should take damage from Bull's Edge AFTER they heal, and they don't currently.
              Tricky discussion because the chain of causality is parallel - not sequential or linear.
              Let's consider possible scenario, although this is only one of many.

              Attacking team:
              FR - Josie, AC
              BR - Josie, SH
              LC - DM

              AC equipped with Bulls Edge

              Defending Team:
              FR - Tempest Sera, Josie
              BR - Josie, Josie
              LC - Shrike

              Shrike equipped with Kitty's Collar

              Cause - Josie from attacking team attacks and kills Shrike on defending team.

              This triggers two parallel events:

              Event 1 - On Shrike's death, defending team takes an additional 5% explosion damage
              Event 2 - On Shrike's death, defending team also heals 60%

              Which event should occur first?

              In the context of turn-based strategy events (TBS) such as this,
              I would think that any on-hit/on-death healing and/or on-death retaliation should occur AFTER all possible incidences of damage from the attacking team have occured.
              This would constitute as one complete 'turn' of the attacking team.

              This also fits with the possible outcome that explosion damage kills the remaining members of the defending team,
              which would mean that Event 2 would (should) not have occured at all.

              However, this could open a can of worms, so maybe it is best that the priority of occurence of on-death retaliation/heal/explosion damage is left to RNG?



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              • #8
                Just in case it gets missed - I think there are two conversations here, one where the order isn't clear and the other where the BE hits don't appear to be happening.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hellboy View Post
                  I don't see why any of the on-death effects should happen after or before the other; in my view, both should be considered at once. By example, if splash damage is -50.000 and kitty's collar is +30.000, then the total result is -20.000 and that should be applied. There's no reason to expect that a toon with 40.000 health should die on that case.
                  ^^^ This is what happens.

                  The order of calculation doesn't matter - it does all the math for all numbers involved, and then applies the final value. If the final result is positive, you'll see healing. If the final result is negative, you'll see damage.

                  I believe what you're leaving out, however, is the fact that Bull's Edge works on a "damage dealt" basis. Damage calculation on death is limited to be the total amount of health remaining on a hero, plus 20% of the overage. This is the most likely reason why it "appears" to sometimes work, and sometimes not, since it is based on how much health the target has left at the time of death. This is a variable amount that, unless you are paying extremely close attention to the damage being dealt throughout the battle along with the healing being done, isn't physically displayed at any point on screen. If you are guessing at how much health is left on a hero, to a number, it's probably throwing off your observations.

                  As such, even if you see the person who has equipped the gear to deal 100,000 damage, but the target only had 5,000 health left, it is only 5,000 + (95,000 * .2) = 24,000 that is counted toward the explosion.

                  Healing, however, is based on the recipient's current power (unless specified as being a % of damage dealt). So if, at the time of healing, based on a 60% heal, the recipient in this same scenario has >= 40,000 power (very much not unheard of these days), then 40,000 * .6 = 24,000, and you would see healing. Technically in a canceled out scenario exactly like that, you would see neither healing nor damage, but that's the target number there for which you would see.

                  The mechanic is working based on all of our testing. It's really a matter of remembering all the math involved.
                  Last edited by Lyeshal; 02-12-2019, 02:16 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Ah, OK, thanks. I imagine that I was attacking low remaining health targets with a high power character - so R3+ Brogan hitting someone just hanging on and I was expecting it to wipe out remaining opponents, where by your calculation it would be a much smaller impact and mitigated by healing before I see it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pixie359 View Post
                      Ah, OK, thanks. I imagine that I was attacking low remaining health targets with a high power character - so R3+ Brogan hitting someone just hanging on and I was expecting it to wipe out remaining opponents, where by your calculation it would be a much smaller impact and mitigated by healing before I see it.
                      It occurs to me I didn't even finish the full calculation earlier for the Heal comparison.

                      So even though 24k damage is considered, Bull's Edge only applies 5% of that as explosion, or just 1200 points of explosion damage. That's pretty easily overcome by healing these days.

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                      • #12
                        I spotted that, but you'd already given me what I was after - 2 clear factors that may well stop BE giving damage that I would have otherwise expected. Thanks again.

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                        • #13
                          Would bulls edge be effective with KAx3 FB GWK or DM?
                          Ally Code: 855-456-682
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Baby Heru View Post
                            Would bulls edge be effective with KAx3 FB GWK or DM?
                            Please ask this question in Vigil's Keep, as the appropriate place to discuss strategy.

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