Queen hits the damage ceiling round 2 - heals the enemy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Heal and Harm |VK| View Post

    We can help you in tests, if you want. Think of something like focus group of players, that can test prereleased heroes, abilities and so on.

    One more question.
    Is it possible, hypothetical, to increase max damage value from 2'147'483'648 to other value?
    Maybe twice of it?
    i'm on board with that. Trying to help address and solve concerns and problems, in any way that we can as a player base, is the ultimate goal.

    I understand that the CG team is small and probably overloaded with things to do, but I hope these concerns don't get lost in the archives, even if they are low priority.

    I agree that the idea of increasing the damage ceiling is an obvious "easy" fix, but without knowing what the team is looking at with the code, and everything attached to it, "easy" might actually be hard or impossible in reality.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Heal and Harm |VK| View Post

      We can help you in tests, if you want. Think of something like focus group of players, that can test prereleased heroes, abilities and so on.

      One more question.
      Is it possible, hypothetical, to increase max damage value from 2'147'483'648 to other value?
      Maybe twice of it?

      Unfortunately we aren't set up to be able to provide a player-test ground, and the resources required to do such are currently beyond us.

      The max damage value is inherent to the machine code for the variable type. It's not something we have set. Changing the variable type is risky and would require touching nearly every portion of the code, for anything that touches that variable along the way.

      There's been many discussions over the past couple of years related to the maximum damage. Believe me, if it were something even remotely reasonable to resolve, we would have done so by now.

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      • #33
        This game has had what would look like hyperinflation in an economic setting, with power and health levels ever increasing. There have been a few cases where currencies have knocked a few 0s off the currency, just so people are dealing in sensible figures, rather than loose sweets costing 100000 units each. Would that be an option here?

        I just bought an elf bandit, with power 25, health 88. Would it be dreadful to be power 3, health 9? Obviously, the bigger the starting value, the less nuance lost by rounding the final digit, so Legs would be basically unaffected.

        There may be nuances to work through, but most things change health and damage by a % rather than raw value, so beyond some armours it would be straightforward.

        I know it would take a lot of work to go through, but would give you an order of magnitude of expansion power wise for new and revamped heroes.

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        • #34
          Like dividing all cards numbers by ten, sounds interesting, there's a lot of setups like 3 ruby or 3 plus emerald shales break the maximum number quite easily, making them inviable and not usable, since you can lose due to the bug quite easily.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by pixie359 View Post
            There have been a few cases where currencies have knocked a few 0s off the currency... Would that be an option here?
            Honestly, I've thought about it. In the end, it's just not feasible, unfortunately, with the resources we currently have. This is the danger and result of the power creep we've experienced over the years. Revamping the entire hero catalog to reduce power/health all around would basically require all other work to halt until it's done, meaning you'd have no events (pvp or quests) other than the daily and keyed quests events live until it was completed, and it would take months to complete. That's not a thing we can do.

            Changing the number on that widescale a basis would require rebalancing the entire game - every quest event would have to be altered to change the enemy stats. We'd also have to put every hero through QA again to check all the stats. The main quest maps would have to be rebalanced. The tutorial would have to be rebalanced. Not to mention it wouldn't solve the problem we currently have of heroes that aren't viable because their stats can't compete. We'd have to analyze every hero individually to determine whether we should change them as part of this, and what to change it to. Some heroes, based on their current stats, probably should NOT be altered, if we were to do a widescale thing like this, because they're already low enough in values.

            I'm sorry but there's just not really anything to be done about this. The math adds up. It's not a bug. It's just a combination of mechanics that makes it so the danger is you might lose. Find a different combination that makes these heroes still viable and usable.
            Last edited by Lyeshal; 01-14-2019, 06:16 AM.

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            • #36
              Ok - that's a shame, but thanks.

              As a side note on terminology, I'm interested in what you would call this if not a bug? I understand the maths adds up, right until you wrap around the maximum value and your character does the opposite of what they're meant to.

              In the rolling programme of character redesigns, when you get to Shales and QES I guess you'll look to reduce their max power (gain)? And presumably you'll be avoiding obvious routes to this much power with other new and revamped characters?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by pixie359 View Post
                Ok - that's a shame, but thanks.

                As a side note on terminology, I'm interested in what you would call this if not a bug?
                A bug would mean there's something inherently wrong with one or more of the individual mechanics at play. Each mechanic, however, on its own, works correctly and as designed. They're not broken. It's the specific combinations of the various mechanics that causes this result.

                It's akin to making a sandwich using a lot of your favorite foods, that when put all together just makes something inedible. Nothing wrong with each individual ingredient, but as a whole it just doesn't work out.

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                • #38
                  This discussion is kind of like comparing "nerf" to "fix". There is some preferred terminology to be acceptable on the forums, but the result is unfortunately the same. As much as this is not considered a "bug" because as stated, "mechanics are working as intended", it's still "broken" as advertised. Players know how things SHOULD work in a correctly functioning environment, and we see all too often that this lovely gaming environment, is not functioning "correctly" on many levels.

                  If raising the max damage variable were easy, (as stated that it's not...maybe impossible), there wouldn't be much discussion about what exactly is broken and how to fix it. It appears that we know what's "broken" and why some teams are "malfunctioning", but are being told it's "not broken", because there is no viable fix, and everything is "working as intended", which is what I took away from everything here.

                  I agree that Nerfing....i mean fixing...the entire catalog would be a viable and time consuming workaround, but I partially blame the player base for screaming about any potential "nerfs", for why power creep has crept in so hard, in an effort to overcome a few toons along the way that were OP for their time.

                  I'll share some Shale videos later today from Proving Grounds, even though it sounds like this discussion won't yield any changes.

                  My original video in Gauntlet is inconsequential, but people losing fights that they should win in PG or GW is what will cause the most frustration.
                  Last edited by Bjorn Ragnarok; 01-14-2019, 10:17 AM.
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                  • #39
                    Totally agree with Jared. pixie359 gimme five. Brilliant idea. Denomination of the stats is very great idea. Instead 54000 power 5400. Dalish bunner, Xenon, Kalt and others + gear should be also revamped with their DR skill in values.
                    I know it is hard work, but should be done for ex with great update or new client release. Please think of it, as a possibility.

                    I agree, now we have a lot of concerns about the game.

                    Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
                    It's akin to making a sandwich using a lot of your favorite foods, that when put all together just makes something inedible. Nothing wrong with each individual ingredient, but as a whole it just doesn't work out.
                    Dear Lyeshal!
                    I guess it's easier to say "No" in the very beginning, but if you deeply analyse this great suggestion, you'll say "Yes" in the end.
                    People are tired of bugs and wrong mechanics. I guess, QA will approve about 700 heroes, in short time. Because all heroes will be nerfed same way.
                    As you mentioned, we have only few heroes that based on their stats. 95% of the heroes have percentage abilities.
                    Also we have a lot of buged heroes, which we don't discuss on the forum such as Queen of The Eastern Seas (her main bug). Because we don't know the nature of her bug, and can't understand and explain it to you. We know, that she gains to much power, but how she does it, we don't know. With such total nerf will be much easier to understand what's wrong with her. Why she deals so much damage after death of the teammate. Besides I don't want to figure out yet. We have enough hot bugs, which should be fixed asap. Also a lot of setups now based on bugs.
                    For instance, Shrike+Josephine+QofES.
                    Shrike hits back, Josy gives total immunity, QofES kills all on second round after death of any teammate. I think it's wrong to let this be as it now.

                    That's all because buged heroes and mechanics are in Meta now such as Josephines, Queens, Piotins and others. From other side Shales are one and only non-buged Meta now. People wish to combine such setups, spend gems, time to get those heroes, open fifth slot of gear, collect useful gear from Raids and so on. As you know, you revamped Shales, gave them such powerful crystals, even sell them in special packs for 25 gems. And now you suggest us not to use them because combination is to powerful. Cognitive dissonance about my sandwich

                    We are all in same boat. We wish only HoDA long living.
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Heal and Harm |VK| View Post
                      I know it is hard work, but should be done for ex with great update or new client release. Please think of it, as a possibility.
                      Please read my previous response regarding this idea. Backing up the idea and agreeing with it isn't going to change that.

                      I guess, QA will approve about 700 heroes, in short time.
                      You guess wrongly. Please don't make assumptions about what the team can and cannot do. I think if I dropped 700 hero updates on our QA team at once, they'd all quit.

                      Shrike hits back, Josy gives total immunity, QofES kills all on second round after death of any teammate. I think it's wrong to let this be as it now.
                      We've already acknowledged this issue and have stated it will be fixed soon.

                      From other side Shales are one and only non-buged Meta now.
                      And yet this thread is claiming that they are bugged. Which is it? Are they, or aren't they?

                      And now you suggest us not to use them because combination is to powerful.
                      I'm not saying don't use them. I'm saying use them in a different combination that doesn't cause the effects you are experiencing. You'll find they're still very powerful, but without breaking the damage variable.
                      Last edited by Lyeshal; 01-15-2019, 06:01 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
                        I'm not saying don't use them. I'm saying use them in a different combination that doesn't cause the effects you are experiencing. You'll find they're still very powerful, but without breaking the damage variable.
                        Funny, but you (we) can't exactly predict such situation.
                        Top meta Shales are: 2 ruby, 1 emerald, 1 par. Caridin + 1 more emerald or diamond.
                        So sometimes the fight goes in right direction, and there is no any opportunity for breaking the limit. But sometimes Caridin stays alive, and he smashed down himself with overdamage and levy.

                        Other top counter team consists of 3 ruby shales and damage runes. This is versatile counter against all types of runes. Sometimes goes well sometimes not.

                        Other variations are not in Meta (maybe I don't know them), so no sense to use them, that's a problem.
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                        • #42
                          Would it be possible to do the math in a variable type that is capable of storing larger numbers, check if that exceeds the max of the existing variable type, and write (MAX-1) back to that?
                          I don't think anyone would complain about a max damage cap that is still capable of wiping the board...
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lokiloam View Post
                            Would it be possible to do the math in a variable type that is capable of storing larger numbers, check if that exceeds the max of the existing variable type, and write (MAX-1) back to that?
                            I don't think anyone would complain about a max damage cap that is still capable of wiping the board...
                            It's very complicated. That's all I can say about it at this point.

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                            • #44
                              We're taking another look at the power gains related to ally/ally auras, as noted in tthe thread about Josephine's on-hit ability. I have a nagging feeling about it, and those nagging feelings have led to some discoveries in the past.

                              It's still true that the math works out for each specific aura when tested, but I don't like the way that it's hitting the damage ceiling in round 2 as reported. Something's still off about that, and there's a lot of numbers involved in the setups that have been presented. But, the ally/ally gain is a common thread, so I'm going to dig a little deeper on that.

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