Quick question about SBD update...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bjorn Ragnarok View Post
    adios Orb of destruction! It was fun while it lasted. ;-)

    I think Damage reduction is working fine. The thing I wonder about is stealth bypassing 10% of DR when it really seems like it bypasses 90%.
    This is probably related to the bonus damage issue. Kitties are going to see a significant decrease in damage output. This could be the "nerf" some have been asking for.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
      Yes, it will be a mechanic correction. It's supposed to be adding up, not multiplying, based on design, so it's a bug that needs to be fixed at the mechanic level.
      Lyeshal, I don't understand something... If bonus damage has to be applied addictively, what would be the difference between a simple power aura and bonus damage?

      For example, take a toon with 10,000 power...

      We add another toon in that squad with 50% power aura for that hero, so the power becomes
      -> 10,000×(1+0.5) = 15,000

      Now take another scenario, instead of power aura we add two toons, one with 20% bonus damage and another with 30% bonus damage, it calculates CURRENTLY AS
      ->10,000×(1+0.3) = 13,000
      (and)
      ->13,000×(1+0.2) = 15,600
      So final power becomes 15,600

      Bonus damage applied goes to 15,600 while power aura applied goes to 15,000

      Shouldn't bonus damage be applied that way? Otherwise I'm saying, what would be the difference between a power aura and bonus damage aura EXCEPT the fact that power aura can be seen in "show more stats" and bonus damage can't...
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Van-Helsing View Post

        Lyeshal, I don't understand something... If bonus damage has to be applied addictively, what would be the difference between a simple power aura and bonus damage?

        For example, take a toon with 10,000 power...

        We add another toon in that squad with 50% power aura for that hero, so the power becomes
        -> 10,000×(1+0.5) = 15,000

        Now take another scenario, instead of power aura we add two toons, one with 20% bonus damage and another with 30% bonus damage, it calculates CURRENTLY AS
        ->10,000×(1+0.3) = 13,000
        (and)
        ->13,000×(1+0.2) = 15,600
        So final power becomes 15,600

        Bonus damage applied goes to 15,600 while power aura applied goes to 15,000

        Shouldn't bonus damage be applied that way? Otherwise I'm saying, what would be the difference between a power aura and bonus damage aura EXCEPT the fact that power aura can be seen in "show more stats" and bonus damage can't...

        I think the benefit to bonus damage is that it applies after power auras. So even though it is going to be stacked additively it is being multiplied by a higher power value. I could be wrong though.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bjorn Ragnarok View Post
          adios Orb of destruction! It was fun while it lasted. ;-)

          I think Damage reduction is working fine. The thing I wonder about is stealth bypassing 10% of DR when it really seems like it bypasses 90%.

          Nope, the stealth bypass is fine.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Van-Helsing View Post

            Lyeshal, I don't understand something... If bonus damage has to be applied addictively, what would be the difference between a simple power aura and bonus damage?

            Shouldn't bonus damage be applied that way? Otherwise I'm saying, what would be the difference between a power aura and bonus damage aura EXCEPT the fact that power aura can be seen in "show more stats" and bonus damage can't...

            Bonus Damage can be targeted against specific factions, groups, heroes, etc. We have a pretty wide assortment of generic bonus damage being granted right now, which isn't hugely different in terms of numbers when compared to the power auras, but it does give us the flexibility to do things like "bonus damage vs demons", in order to specialize heroes. Power Auras can't do that.

            Plus, never underestimate the defensive strategy of bonus damage not displaying in More Info - if your opponent isn't paying close enough attention, they may attempt to attack you thinking your power output is going to be lower than it actually is.

            Also, when it comes to applying things based on a hero's power stat, that takes in the power auras, but not the bonus damage. Some examples are power drains, heals, power gains, etc. Bonus Damage is actually a way for us to limit some of those functions while still allowing a hero to hit harder.

            Additionally, when creating heroes, we don't take Bonus Damage into account for determining statistics, but we do take Power Auras into account - so a hero that would qualify for 2000 Power, for example, would have that value reduced by the value of their Power Aura if they have one, but it would NOT be reduced with a Bonus Damage aura. Meaning the same hero having a 25% Power Aura would then have their base power stat set to 1600, while if it were a 25% Bonus Damage aura, their power stat would still be 2000. Higher base stats means higher fortified stats, too, so the overall damage output of a hero with BD but not Power Aura would be higher than a similarly ranked hero with a Power Aura instead of BD.

            (confused? here's an example-)

            Take 2 heroes of the same class, based on star-rating, rarity, attack type, and speed. Both heroes qualify for a Power Stat (before fortifications) of 2000 point.

            Hero A: 25% Power Aura. Power Stat is set to 1600 (because 1600 * 1.25 = 2000), with a maximum fortified value of 5968. Final potential damage = 5595 * 1.25 (power aura) = 7460.
            Hero B: 25% Bonus Damage. Power Stat is set to 2000, with a maximum fortified value of 7460. Final potential damage = 7460 * 1.25 (bonus damage) = 9325.

            So it's not so much when comparing a hero to itself and swapping out Power Aura or Bonus Damage, but rather comparing heroes to each other within the same stat class. It's a more subtle benefit for having Bonus Damage, but it is definitely there.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
              Sooo.....

              Someone said something that made my brain click a little and realized that in the calculations, I didn't add up the 4x hero-supplied Bonus Damage from the opposing squad. When I did, I figured out what was actually going on.

              Damage Resistance is calculating 100% correctly. That's not the problem.

              The problem is the Bonus Damage. It's stacking wrong, causing the final damage output to be much greater than expected. For anyone who remembers when Nathaniel Howe was released, it's a similar issue - the Bonus Damage auras aren't adding - they're multiplying. I got the math to work 100% once this was determined. So we're going to correct this to make Bonus Damage apply in an additive fashion just like all the other auras.
              Is this a quick fix or will it take some time?

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              • #22
                We calculated all bonuses. Difference is not so big. Something about 30% for 3 cats (less for 2 and more for 4). One good thing is that Orb of Destruction will be no more harmful against black fraction. Blight and GW will play from that time.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Heal and Harm |VK| View Post
                  We calculated all bonuses. Difference is not so big. Something about 30% for 3 cats (less for 2 and more for 4). One good thing is that Orb of Destruction will be no more harmful against black fraction. Blight and GW will play from that time.
                  I'd say a 30% reduction in damage, plus the reduction in the effectiveness of the OoD is a pretty big difference. Kitty will still be strong, but not what she is today.
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                  • #24
                    Lyeshal maybe it might be easier if you could say give us some math based examples on what current calculations are vs what it will be when fixed? I think everyone is worried about what what effect this has on our beloved kitties so maybe just a quick example of how the bonus damage works with them. Example if I had a squad of 3 kitties (no other characters or Orbs to keep it simple) how does the bonus damage work now and how will it work when fixed. We have math based examples on a lot of other things like Damage Resist but I don't recall seeing one on BOnus Damage.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post
                      So it's not so much when comparing a hero to itself and swapping out Power Aura or Bonus Damage, but rather comparing heroes to each other within the same stat class. It's a more subtle benefit for having Bonus Damage, but it is definitely there.
                      Thanks for the detailed answer Lyeshal, I understand now
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tavan View Post
                        Lyeshal maybe it might be easier if you could say give us some math based examples on what current calculations are vs what it will be when fixed? I think everyone is worried about what what effect this has on our beloved kitties so maybe just a quick example of how the bonus damage works with them. Example if I had a squad of 3 kitties (no other characters or Orbs to keep it simple) how does the bonus damage work now and how will it work when fixed. We have math based examples on a lot of other things like Damage Resist but I don't recall seeing one on BOnus Damage.

                        In the event of 4 Kitties, let's say they currently have 2000 power each after auras, and not taking Orbs into account, for simplicity.

                        Currently, each Kitty gets (2000 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15) = 3498 damage output.

                        Corrected to be as designed, each Kitty will get (2000 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .15) ) = 2000 * 1.6 = 3200 damage output.

                        If you want to see the before-and-after taking Orbs into account, add in each orb's supplied bonus damage per kitty in the above prescribed manners - that is, multiply it in for current, and add it in for change. That is, if each orb is granting 28% Bonus Damage as your "ideal" situation (Black Demons vs Black Demons) and each Kitty has an Orb equipped, and there's no LC to bother with, then you'll have:

                        Current: (2000 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.28 * 1.28 * 1.28 * 1.28) = 9390
                        Corrected: (2000 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .28 + .28 + .28 + .28)) = 2000 * 2.72 = 5440

                        Keep in mind that we have created and balanced heroes under the assumption of the CORRECTED scenario, as this is what the design specifies.

                        We have provided this kind of math for the Orbs in the past on the forums, but it was given using the design specification of additive methods, rather than the exponential that it actually is doing.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jeff McNamee View Post

                          Is this a quick fix or will it take some time?
                          I don't have an answer for that, as our engineer is currently on a higher priority task.

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                          • #28
                            Thank you for the examples. That combined with your earlier explanation to Van Helsing makes things much more clear.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lyeshal View Post


                              In the event of 4 Kitties, let's say they currently have 2000 power each after auras, and not taking Orbs into account, for simplicity.

                              Currently, each Kitty gets (2000 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15) = 3498 damage output.

                              Corrected to be as designed, each Kitty will get (2000 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .15) ) = 2000 * 1.6 = 3200 damage output.

                              If you want to see the before-and-after taking Orbs into account, add in each orb's supplied bonus damage per kitty in the above prescribed manners - that is, multiply it in for current, and add it in for change. That is, if each orb is granting 28% Bonus Damage as your "ideal" situation (Black Demons vs Black Demons) and each Kitty has an Orb equipped, and there's no LC to bother with, then you'll have:

                              Current: (2000 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.28 * 1.28 * 1.28 * 1.28) = 9390
                              Corrected: (2000 * (1 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .15 + .28 + .28 + .28 + .28)) = 2000 * 2.72 = 5440

                              Keep in mind that we have created and balanced heroes under the assumption of the CORRECTED scenario, as this is what the design specifies.

                              We have provided this kind of math for the Orbs in the past on the forums, but it was given using the design specification of additive methods, rather than the exponential that it actually is doing.

                              Even in a fight against a non "ideal" (no black faction, no demon) setup with 4 kitties with orbs the power would drop from 5908 to 4320 (~27%) using the base 2000 power. This will have a pretty significant impact on Kitty and other heroes as well.
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                              • #30
                                I demand compensation

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